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Inspired by over-the-cubical-wall conversations about the changing world of electronics and electrical engineering, Daniel Bogdanoff and Mike Hoffman created an electrical engineering podcast. Covering a broad range of topics from the basics of electrical engineering to the tough engineering problems of tomorrow’s technologies, Daniel & Mike bring in members of Keysight’s engineering team to provide their unique perspectives.
May 20th is a special day – World Metrology Day! Get a bit of history and learn about all things metrology when you join Daniel Bogdanoff, Bob Stern, and Chris Cox in this special Metrology Day electrical engineering podcast!
App note mentioned by Bob: https://bit.ly/DecisionRules
More about Keysight metrology, calibration, and services: https://www.keysight.com/find/metrology
0:00 World metrology day, and a brief history of the meter and the ohm
2:00 Keysight University has FREE test gear courses!
2:45 Bob Stern, Keysight Metrologist Chris Cox, Keysight Regional Metrologist
4:30 Why does metrology matter? How does it impact us? The global economy relies on a consistency of measurement and test, which is why metrology is important. It allows measurements made in one country to be used and replicated in other countries.
7:25 Metrology and measurement traceability is important. An unbroken chain of traceability is one of the key components of metrology and calibration. It’s a bit like a game of telephone leading back to SI units.
10:00 Keysight DMMs get calibrated off the first commercially available Josephson Junction – a tool that uses quantum physics to provide a very stable voltage.
11:16 Accuracy vs. Measurement Uncertainty A production engineer might say “accuracy” but really it’s all about “measurement uncertainty” Vocabulary of international metrology (VIM): https://www.bipm.org/en/publications/guides/vim.html
12:15 A practical example of how different instruments have different levels of uncertainty
13:45 What’s the significance of measurement uncertainty for a user of test gear or a production engineer?
15:33 The internal adjustments that the factory makes to an instrument are some of the most closely guarded intellectual property / trade secrets.
18:15 The Army uses mobile Josephson junctions to test the DMMs used in Apache helicopter field testing.
18:45 Metrology overkills – times when people went overboard with their measurement uncertainty
21:10 How do you quantify measurement uncertainty? There’s “test uncertainty ratio” which uses your expanded measurement uncertainty.
23:00 You can also get to percent risk, which is easy to wrap your head around. Bob Stern and Chris Cox authored some papers on this topic.
24:00 Why do people make measurements in the first place? There are no perfect measurements
26:45 Metrology in the government/military vs. private sector
29:00 There are a lot of factors for metrology equipment calibration and the engineering metrology equipment. There are different “levels” of calibration and different depth of reporting
When power systems get ridiculous…
Power goes way beyond basic bench power supplies. Daniel Bogdanoff sits down with Chris Cain to explore femtoamp measurements, 100 kV multi-quadrant regenerative power systems, noise, and space-borne solar arrays in this EEs Talk Tech electrical engineering podcast!
Audio:
Learn more about the Keysight RP7900 regenerative power systems (RPS) and the Keysight CX3300 Dynamic Current Analyzers
0:17
Recording from New Jersey with Chris Cain, who manages teams for electronic industrial products, like power, DMMs, function generators, DAQs, board test, etc.
1:15
Current analyzer behind us measures FEMTOAMPERES of current. This is useful for RF and IoT systems.
4:20
Chris’s most spectacular equipment failure – a new engineer put their electrolytics in backwards
6:30
For extra large electrolytic capacitors people design vent holes in PCB 8:15 High power power supplies. 5kW and 10 kW power supplies
9:00
Two quadrant power supplies vs. one quadrant power supplies
10:30
A 100 kV power supply!? What’s that used for? Battery emulation for things like electric cars. The supply has to be able to both source and sink power, and switch between the two very quickly
12:15
A regenerative power supply (RPS) rectifies input voltage and puts it back on the AC mains instead of dissipating it as heat like a normal electronic load. So, the overall cooling requirements are very different for an RPS than a normal electronic load. One of the big costs for industrial factories is air conditioning and heat management. So, a regenerative power supply is very useful because it reduces heat.
15:15
Regenerative power supplies are also useful for testing photovoltaic inverters, for both terrestrial and space solar systems.
18:45
Noise parameters for high power systems
20:30
Power is very complex, and the systems are very dynamic
22:15
Giant toroidal transformers are used for power supplies and are dynamically controlled. They also are leveraged from systems like source measure units (SMUs).
24:30
Precision current measurement is very different than measurement, it often uses a triax
25:30
Some systems have 5 or 6 wire measurements to help with guardbanding
5G means business. With wired speeds coming in over the air, designers are turning to new wireless techniques like beamforming, MIMO, and advanced tower synchonization designed to pump you full of bits. Find out more as Daniel Bogdanoff sits down with Brig Asay and Joe Haver to discuss the changing wireless ecosystem of tomorrow.
Audio:
Video:
1:00
4G was sub 6 GHz, but 5G is much higher frequencies (24 GHz, 28 GHz, 39 GHz, and above 50 GHz)
2:15
4G test strategies: simple source and a middle-of-the-line signal analyzer. There were also some combo boxes that were both signal sources and signal analyzers.
4:00
5G testing requires more powerful setups. There are still generators, but they have to be more powerful. FR2, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 400 MHz wide bands make things more complicated.
Chambers and OTA (over the air) testing and MIMO systems make things much more complicated.
And, a 5G system has to cover all of these ranges.
5:30
MIMO for 5G – MIMO means “Multiple Input Multiple Output”
Beamforming is also being implemented. Designers need to be able to test and see all the 5G signals at once.
7:00 Beamforming explanation and discussion – essentially beams can be directed with constructive and destructive interference to send signals to UEs (user equipment).
5G beamforming significantly increases the power delivered to a UE. Want to try it? Try “Build a beam” here: https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2800374
10:00
5G brings wired-level speeds to wireless systems, which will open up brand new markets that haven’t even been defined yet.
11:15
5G security
12:00
Are 5G bandwidths a challenge? A wider carrier channel means more interference and a lower effective number of bits / SNR (signal to noise ratio). So, the wide 5G bands require a more robust design. This is especially true for distance.
Even windows are potentially a challenge with 5G frequencies, so beamforming becomes critical.
15:30
Testing 5G with a signal analyzer / spectrum analyzer – is it doable? Sorta… How do you look at four distinct bands at one time?
18:00
The UXR oscilloscope can actually look at multiple bands at once at 0.5 EVM (error vector magnitude).
20:00
Why does 5G have so many different frequencies and bands? Isn’t that excessive?
21:00
Will 5G make it where I can get rid of my home internet provider?
22:00
Beamforming from a cell tower is pretty easy, but it’s much harder for a handset. So, there are systems that propose 5G downlinks, but 4G or 3G back up to the tower.
23:00
Multiple towers can talk to the same handset AT THE SAME TIME! Multiple towers can provide the same packet at the same time to the same UE to increase the power. This means they are all working on the same clock as well.
25:00
There are a number of ways to synchronize multiple cell towers at the same time. GPS is common, but there are a number of other feasible technologies.
27:00
Brig has to get in his “vicious Keysight plug” for the mmWave extension on the UXR that lets an oscilloscope behave like a signal analyzer. It also uses a 1mm connector on the front end.
31:45
Stupid question: if you had to describe 5G using five words that start with “G” what would they be?
New tunneling modes, the scoop on plugfests, and 40 Gbps!
Get the FREE! Tech Tip eBook about testing 6 emerging technolgy standards: http://bit.ly/PodcastTechTrends
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It feels like USB 3.2 just came out, but USB4 is HERE! With USB4, gone are the days of wondering what’s behind that USB Type-C connector – all the functionality is mandatory. And, you get double the speed! 40 Gbps over two 20 Gpbs lines keeps Moore’s law happy (which makes us happy).
Find out more in today’s podcast with Jit Lim, Mike Hoffman, and Daniel Bogdanoff.
Video version:
Twitter: @DanielBogdanoff:
https://twitter.com/DanielBogdanoff
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Notes & Topics:
1:45
The USB-IF released the USB4 Spec in September
USB4 requires that you use the USB Type C connector
USB4 is fully backwards compatible
USB4 uses a 20 Gbps x2 link (pronounced “by two”) so Moore’s law still holds (yay!)
USB 3.2 took 10 Gbps and doubled it to 20 Gbps
It’s USB4 not USB 4.0 and not USB 4 (confirmed)
10:00
With USB4 you must implement USB-PD (USB Power Delivery), but in the past it was optional.
USB4 brings a doubling bitrates, you must use Type C connector, and must be backwards compatible all the way to USB2
13:30
USB 3 and USB 3.2 had a lot of alternate modes, but USB4 implements a tunneling mode. With tunneling allows you to send packets of USB, DisplayPort, or PCIe inside of the USB protocol. This means you don’t have to run it as an alternate mode, which requires extra silicon.
17:00
The silicon is often prototyped before a spec is actually released, so that the spec can match reality and be possible to build.
18:30
USB4 is already being prototyped and tested. At the USB workshop-plugfest
USB plugfests are very secret, and company names aren’t used. They use a “test ID number” instead of company name, and the attendance is very limited. In many cases, only Keysight and the company testing their device are allowed to be in the room while the testing is done.
21:00
A “Compliance Test Spec” describes how you test a device against a specification. Because, you can’t test for every single thing in the spec, but you can test a subset of things to verify performance.
22:00
Will USB take over everything? It depends on the other organizations and specifications groups. There are other ecosystems and organizations like VESA (DisplayPort) and HDMI that are autonomous. But, both HDMI and VESA have a USB Type-C mode that allows the protocols to work over a USB Type C connector
26:00
USB4 implementation is very complex! The different speeds that could be used are pretty complex. USB4 is advertised 40 Gbps, but it’s actually 20 Gbps x2.
30:15
It can be 5 Gbps, 10 Gbps, 20 Gbps, and run at x1 or x2, and it can also do alt modes.
31:55
Are there any main competitors to USB4? What about the lightning connector from Apple?
35:30
There’s evidence that there will be a USB4 native display, and some high end USB4 monitors already exist.
36:30
USB4 is coming, and if you want to be on the leading edge you better get started now (and why)!
38:20 – stupid questions:
When will see USB5? What’s the lamest way someone could use USB4?
If USB4 is truly universal, shouldn’t it go into space?
Helpful Links:
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http://bit.ly/KeysTechBlogs
It ain’t over. We’re back with a hot new season, premiering November 21, 2019!
Audio:
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Spotify:
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The unsung heroes of the IC world – packaging engineers!
The pictures I promised:
The UXR Amplifier Fanout Package:
Bert Signal Conditioning Hybrid Packaging:
UXR Data Processor Flip Chip Packaging:
Space requires new technologies. Much like the space race of the 1950s, engineers are feverishly working to gain a competitive advantage. Mark Lombardi sits down to explore rad hardening, thermal vacuum chambers, space mining, CubeSats, and battery technology.
Mark Lombardi – 25 years at HP/Agilent/Keysight. He worked for RT logic for a few years, where he got into space.
2:00 – Your odds of survival getting to space are better than getting to the top of Everest.
2:30 – Space mining from the Asteroid belt has the potential to create the worlds first trillionaire.
3:20 – We need to establish manufacturing in space. For example, what if you manufactured satellites on the moon instead of on earth?
4:00 – The main driver is price-per-pound
6:10 – The Space Force – it sounds a little silly at first but is very reasonable when you take a closer look.
7:45 – How do you test objects bound for space?
8:30 – Space is transitioning from government-only to commercial. Businesses are starting to explore how to add value to society and make a profit from space.
9:15 – Phased arrays, reusable rockets, LEO satellites are all changing space technology.
10:00 – Low earth orbit satellites have much lower delay. Geosynchronous satellites have a 250 ms propagation delay.
This has interesting implications for 5G – that 250 ms latency is too long for 5G requirements. So, LEO satellites are what will be used.
12:00 – Using LEO satellites will be deployed in force instead of as singles, as mentioned in the Weather Cubesat podcast.
13:45 – Ghana launched their own satellite, which is a huge step. They eventually won’t be dependent on others for their space access. And, they can do specialized things for reasonable prices.
15:00 – Announcements – we haven’t podcasted in a long time, sorry! We are switching to 1x per month
16:45 – Radiation hardening for electronics, sometimes called electronics hardening. Historically, you had to plan for a long life in a satellite. Now, you don’t have to.
17:30 – It’s also hard to get a rad hardened cutting-edge technology.
18:00 – LEO satellites get less radiation, so it’s less of a problem. And, since they are cheaper, you can build in an expected mortality rate.
19:00 – You can also rev hardware faster, allowing you to use newer technology. Think about imagers, the technology has moved a long way in seven years.
19:55 – Space is cold. Space is a vacuum. So, to test our gear you have to reproduce that on earth. To do that, we use special chambers.
20:50 – Thermal vacuum chambers (T vac) are used to test space objects. Automotive parts are actually very resilient to temperature changes and can be leveraged into space designs.
21:30 – What happens to electronics in space? The vacuum is a bigger challenge than the temperature changes.
23:30 – To get more bandwidth, we have to increase frequency. This leads to attenuation in the air and in cables. Some designers are switching to waveguides.
25:00 – With modular test equipment, you could potentially have test gear that can survive in space.
27:00 – What is the current and projected size of the space industry?
28:10 – What batteries are used in space? What factors into battery decisions? – Lithium ion batteries work well in space, and are used when we can charge them with solar energy.
28:40 – Deep space exploration uses all sorts of obscure battery technology.
29:10 – Electronic propulsion
30:05 – Over 150V, things get interesting. The breakdown voltage is different in space than it is on earth. So, designers have to be very careful.
Brig Asay, Melissa, and Daniel Bogdanoff sit down to answer the internet’s questions about the new 110 GHz UXR oscilloscope. How long did it take? What did it cost? Find out!
Some of the questions & comments
S K on YouTube: How long does it take to engineer something like this? With custom ASICs all over the place and what not…
Glitch on YouTube: Can you make a budget version of it for $99?
Steve Sousa on YouTube: But how do you test the test instrument?? It’s already so massively difficult to make this, how can you measure and qualify it’s gain, linearity etc?
TechNiqueBeatz on YouTube: About halfway through the video now.. what would the practical application(s) of an oscilloscope like this be?
Alberto Vaudagna on YouTube: Do you know what happen to the data after the dsp? It go to the CPU motherboard and processed by the CPU or the data is overlayed on the screen and the gui is runner’s by the CPU?
How does a piece of equipment like that get delivered? I just don’t think UPS or Fedex is going to cut it for million+ dollar prototype. It would be nice to see some higher magnification views of the front end.
Ulrich Frank:mNice sturdy-looking handles at the side of the instrument – to hold on to and keep you steady when you hear the price…
SAI Peregrinus: That price! It costs less than half the price of a condo in Brooklyn, NY! (Search on Zillow, sort by price high to low. Pg 20 has a few for $2.7M, several of which are 1 bedroom…)
RoGeorgeRoGeorge: Wow, speechless!
R Bhalakiya: THIS IS ALL VOODOO MAGIC
Maic Salazar Diagnostics: This is majestic!!
Sean Bosse: Holy poop. Bet it was hard keeping this quiet until the release.
jonka1: Looking at the front end it looks as if the clock signal paths are of different lengths. How is phase dealt with? Is it in this module or later in software?
cims: The Bugatti Veyron of scopes with a price to match, lol
One scope to rule them all…wow! Keyesight drops the proverbial mic with this one
Mike Oliver: That is a truly beautiful piece of equipment. It is more of a piece of art work than any other equipment I have ever seen.
Gyro on EEVBlog: It’s certainly a step change in just how bad a bad day at the office could really get!
TiN: I have another question, regarding the input. Are there any scopes that have waveguide input port, instead of very pricey precision 1.0mm/etc connectors?
Or in this target scope field, that’s not important as much, since owner would connect the input cable and never disconnect? Don’t see those to last many cable swaps in field, even 2.4mm is quite fragile.
User on EEVBlog: According to the specs, It looks like the 2 channel version he looked at “only” requires 1370 VA and can run off 120V. The 4 channel version only works off 200-240V
The really interesting question: how do they calibrate that calibration probe.
They have to characterize the imperfections in it’s output to a significantly better accuracy than this scope can measure. Unless there’s something new under the sun in calibration methodology?
Mikes Electric Stuff @mikelectricstuf: Can I get it in beige?
Yaghiyah @yaghiyah: Does it support Zone Triggering?
User on Twitter:
It’ll be a couple paychecks before I’m in the market, but I’d really be interested in some detail on the probes and signal acquisition techniques. Are folks just dropping a coax connector on the PCB as a test point? The test setup alone has to be a science in itself.
I’d also be interested in knowing if the visiting aliens that you guys mugged to get this scope design are alive and being well cared for.
Hi Daniel, just out of curiosity and within any limits of NDAs, can you go into how the design process goes for one of these bleeding-edge instruments? Mostly curious how much of the physical design, like the channels in the hybrid, are designed by a human versus designed parametrically and synthesized
USB Type-C brings a lot of protocols into one physical connector, but is there room for one protocol to handle all our IO needs? Mike Hoffman and Daniel Bogdanoff sit down with high speed digital communications expert Jit Lim to find out.
0:00 This is Jit’s 3rd podcast of the series
1:00 We already have one connector to rule them all with USB Type-C, but it’s just a connector. Will we ever have one specification to rule them all?
2:00 Prior to USB Type-C, each protocol required it’s own connector. With USB TYpe-C, you can run multiple protocols over the same physical connector
3:00 This would make everything more simple for engineers, they would only need to test and characterize one technology.
3:30 Jit proposes a “Type-C I/O”
4:00 Thunderbolt already allows displayport to tunnel through it
4:30 Thunderbolt already has a combination of capabilities. It has a display mode – you can buy a Thunderbolt display. This means you can run data and display using the same technology
6:30 There’s a notion of a muxed signals
7:00 The PHY speed is the most important. Thunderbolt is running 20 Gb/s
7:15 What would the physical connection look like? Will the existing USB Type-C interface work? Currently we already see 80 Gb/s ports (4 lanes) in existing consumer PCs
9:20 Daniel hates charging his phone without fast charging
9:40 The USB protocol is for data transfer, but is there going to be a future USB dispaly protocol? There are already some audio and video modes in current USB, like a PC headset
11:30 Why are we changing? The vision is to plug it in and have it “just work”
12:00 Today, standards groups are quite separate. They each have their own ecosystems that they are comfortable in. So, this is a big challenge for getting to a single spec
13:15 Performance capabilities, like cable loss, is also a concern and challenge
14:00 For a tech like this were to exist, will the groups have to merge? Or, will someone just come out with a spec that obsoletes all of the others?
15:30 Everyone has a cable hoard. Daniel’s is a drawer, Mike’s is a shoebox
16:30 You still have to be aware of the USB Type-C cables that you buy. There’s room for improvement
17:30 Mike wants a world of only USB Type-C connectors and 3.5mm headphone jacks
18:30 From a test and measurement perspective, it’s very attractive to have a single protocol. You’d only have to test at one rate, one time
19:30 Stupid questions
Amanda is a wife. A mother. A blogger. A Christian.
A charming, beautiful, bubbly, young woman who lives life to the fullest.
But Amanda is dying, with a secret she doesn’t want anyone to know.
She starts a blog detailing her cancer journey, and becomes an inspiration, touching and
captivating her local community as well as followers all over the world.
Until one day investigative producer Nancy gets an anonymous tip telling her to look at Amanda’s
blog, setting Nancy on an unimaginable road to uncover Amanda’s secret.
Award winning journalist Charlie Webster explores this unbelievable and bizarre, but
all-too-real tale, of a woman from San Jose, California whose secret ripped a family apart and
left a community in shock.
Scamanda is the true story of a woman whose own words held the key to her secret.
New episodes every Monday.
Follow Scamanda on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
Amanda’s blog posts are read by actor Kendall Horn.
